Can Jarrett Allen end the season inside the Top 10 of centers in the NBA? Wine and Gold Talk podcast

Takeaways:

• LeBron’s return to Cleveland with his son Bronny is a historic moment, as the James family’s legacy is intertwined with Cleveland.
• Bronny’s journey reflects resilience and determination.
• LeBron’s future in the league may include playing with his youngest son Bryce James.
• Jarrett Allen is becoming a recognized center in the league, but he’ll have another tough matchup Wednesday against the Lakers’ Anthony Davis.

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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.

Ethan Sands

What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. Chris Fedor once again joins the show, this time in Cleveland. And somebody else is returning to Cleveland, Chris. Somebody that the Cavs fans know very, very well. LeBron James.

Chris (00:24.021)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (00:29.518)

But this time it’s a little bit more memorable and a more momentous occasion than we’ve seen in the past. Last time he was here, he was on the sidelines, scouting out the Cavs, seeing potentially if he wanted to come over here and all that speculation that had happened. Now he’s with the Lakers still and bringing his son, Bronny James, who not only got to experience the Cleveland atmosphere and Rocket Morgan Fieldhouse, then Q Arena, all that good stuff.

back in those days. But Chris, how long has this been coming along? You’ve been covering LeBron James for a long time. What have you experienced with LeBron, Bronnie being in the Cleveland Arena and things of that nature?

Chris (01:18.966)

Well, know, Bronnie has just, he’s just grown up around basketball. He’s grown up around this organization. I still remember times when Bronnie and his brother Bryce were in the locker room following games for the Cavs. I remember times where Bronnie and Bryce would be at training camp or at the practice facility, just taking shots on one of the side hoops. I remember times where

Both those guys would be on the floor after games and they’d just be shooting around waiting for LeBron to shower and meet with the media and all that kind of stuff. I do think it’s a special occasion for Bronnie. Obviously opening night, October 23rd, that was the big one because that was the first time in history that father son played together in the NBA, shared the same floor and for the Lakers to do it the way that they did with both of them checking in.

at the same time, like that moment is not going to be topped. Not for Bronnie, not for LeBron. But when you talk about all of the history with this organization and the James family, Bronnie being able to do this, play alongside his dad, come back for his own homecoming in a building where he essentially grew up, a building that he has fond memories of, a building where he was a spectator for

some of the greatest moments in Cavs franchise history in a building where, you know, Bronnie grew up about 45 minutes away, where he was born about 45 minutes away. So everything surrounding this game and everything surrounding Cleveland and what that means to Bronnie, know, LeBron’s had his homecoming. LeBron’s had big moments at Rocket Mortgage Fieldhouse. For Bronnie, somebody who was a spectator for many of those.

for him to be able to get his own moment and check into the game and play on that court alongside his dad. There’s no other way to say it except for one, it’s crazy to think about given that just 10 years ago, he was a young kid in the locker room and he was talking about video games and he was out there on the court playing horse with his brother and stuff like that. And two, this is really, really special. It’s going to be a night that the James family will never forget.

Ethan Sands (03:41.88)

And it was formerly Quicken Loans Arena, now Rocky Mortgage Fieldhouse. And this is not only a special momentous occasion for those two, but it’s also 30 years in the making of this arena, right? And a lot of the momentous and bigger memories came because of LeBron, and now he’s gonna be able to share another huge memory with Bronnie. And I wanted to touch on the most important part of this for me is how Bronnie had the option

Chris (04:00.608)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (04:11.406)

to do things other than basketball, right? He is an influencer. He is a gamer, as you mentioned. has a following larger than many influencers have been doing it for a much longer time. But he decided after having cardiac arrest at USC to continue to pursue basketball, not only to pursue his dad’s dream of playing alongside him, but to pursue his own dream of playing in the NBA. Obviously this is a five game stretch.

Chris (04:14.326)

Mm.

Ethan Sands (04:40.846)

where JJ Reddick and the Los Angeles Lakers are allowing Bronte to play in some games at the NBA level before he hits the G League training and all those different things. I just think it’s a very big moment, not only for that, but also for how far he’s come. And as you mentioned, being not 50 minutes away from where he was born and he getting to have his family more than likely in attendance to see this game.

is going to hit at a different level than it even may have when it first got to hit. No, I agree with you. think that when he first touched the court with his dad, that is going to be the biggest moment. But I don’t think that there is a bigger moment outside of that than this, than returning to Cleveland and having those kinds of things happen in front of him, showcasing not only his abilities but

Chris (05:30.516)

No, that’s not.

Ethan Sands (05:38.03)

how far he’s come in this journey.

Chris (05:41.574)

No, there’s not. And here’s the thing, Ethan. I don’t know what kind of player, ultimately, Brawny is going to be. He was the 55th pick in the draft. He’s an undersized… What do you call him? A point guard? No, probably not. An undersized shooting guard based on his skill set. So, he needs time in the G League. He needs time to grow and develop and evolve behind the scenes, away from the drama.

away from the hoopla and the cameras and everything that surrounds him being a Los Angeles Laker. So I have no idea what kind of player he’s going to be. But no matter what kind of player he turns into in his career, it doesn’t take away from how special this situation is. LeBron and Bronny playing on the same theme. LeBron and Bronny spending time together, practices, shoot-arounds, road trips. LeBron and Bronny

checking in and playing a few minutes in the opener for the Los Angeles Lakers, LeBron and Brawny, you know, being able to have this moment and share this moment where they play in Cleveland together on the same team. Like, it doesn’t matter if he’s gonna go and average two points per game throughout the course of his career, 10 points per game. No one can take away October 23rd from him.

Nobody can take October 23rd away from the James family and nobody’s going to be able to take October 30th away from the James family either. This whole Bronnie being on the Lakers and playing alongside LeBron goes so far beyond points per game, assists per game, rebounds per game and what kind of player ultimately Bronnie becomes. He’s the 55th pick of the draft. Some of those guys make it, some of those guys don’t. Some of those guys spend

a majority of their career in the G League because they’re just not good enough for the NBA level. It’s not like he was a first round pick. It’s not like he was a top 10 pick. It’s not like he was a top 20 pick. And then he’s got all of these expectations or he should have all of these expectations to live up to those. He was picked about where he should have been picked late in the second round, very close to the end of the draft. And now he’s in a situation where

Chris (08:02.546)

He’s going to have to go down to the G league and he’s going to have to prove that maybe possibly someday he can be a quality NBA rotation player. Whether that happens or not, that remains to be seen. I certainly have my doubts, but nothing will be able to take away from the first week of, of Brawny in the NBA playing alongside his dad and especially what’s going to take place tomorrow for the James family.

Ethan Sands (08:31.322)

Alright Chris, so the last question I want to have for you based on the James family topic and returning to Cleveland is do you think there’s been speculation that LeBron James could play for two, maybe three more years in the NBA? Do you think that LeBron plays long enough to play with Bryce as well? Or is this just trying to play with Bronnie and then finishing out his career as best as he can?

Chris (09:01.974)

So anytime we have these kinds of conversations, I think it starts here. Is Bryce good enough? I don’t know. Like what kind of player is he ultimately going to become? How much better is he going to get over the next couple of years? Is he considered an NBA caliber prospect or an NBA caliber prep? Those things are hard to gauge this far out. So that’s the first thing.

But I’ll say this, when it comes to LeBron and his role in that situation, I will never ever put anything past LeBron because he does things that are inhuman. I had a conversation with Tristan Thompson when we were in New York. It was following Shoot Around and we talked about Bronnie and the piece is going to come out for Cleveland.com early Wednesday morning.

And Tristan was just reflecting on Bronnie’s time around the team and how he got to know him as a person and as a basketball player. And just how crazy it is that Tristan is about to be on the same floor in an NBA jersey playing against his nephew. It’s wild to Tristan. Like all he kept saying was that is effing crazy. That is effing crazy. That is effing crazy. Making me feel old.

But Tristan and I talked about the possibility of LeBron lasting long enough if if Bryce is good enough To play alongside him as well and Tristan His speculation at this point. It’s almost like a guarantee when it comes from Tristan He said that Bronnie LeBron and Bryce are all gonna be on the Lakers And LeBron is going to try and play this out

as long as he possibly can and he’s still playing at a high enough level and he still has so much love and passion for his craft and for the game that Tristan said, I’m telling you right now, LeBron is going to last that long so that Bryce has an opportunity to be a part of this too. That’s what Tristan thinks. And like I said, the thing that I learned in covering LeBron for as long as I did is that

Chris (11:22.836)

you never put anything past him because he is capable of doing things that mere mortals should not be capable of. He is capable of doing things that analysts, media members, writers, we all say that he can’t. Or have in the past said he couldn’t and then he turned around and did them. So I’m done doubting LeBron James in any capacity.

Ethan Sands (11:52.154)

I think that’s very fair. And for those who don’t know, Bryce James, at least on 247 Sports, which I have known to be reliable, not only attends Sierra Canyon in California, a good school, he’s listed as a three star and has offers from Duquesne and Ohio State, right? Obviously, LeBron James has a fandom, a love for Ohio State as well. So that’s definitely good.

Chris (12:05.536)

Hmm.

Ethan Sands (12:21.432)

play a little bit of a factor in that, but he’s in the class of 2025. So that’s coming up. And it is a potential for Bryce to be one and done potentially play in the G league, ignite all these different things to get a faster route to the NBA to make this happen for LeBron and his family. enough of LeBron talk. Obviously that is the biggest storyline going into Wednesday’s game between the Cavs and the Los Angeles Lakers. But

I think there is anything that we can just glance over when it comes to this matchup, right? It’s another tough matchup for the Cavs. They look to continue to be undefeated and improve the 5-0 after playing the Lakers on Wednesday, but they’re going to have to go through potentially one of the best centers in the NBA, Anthony Davis, arguably one of the best centers in the NBA, and Chris

I think this is another great matchup for Jared Allen, who’s quietly becoming one of the best centers in the league, and especially in the Eastern Conference, to show what he’s capable of against a long stretch of players, right? We saw it last year, and we talked about it last year when he had a stretch of players and centers that he had to go up against that were formidable. This season, he starts out with Kat, AD,

Kylo, Wendell, Jonathan Isaac, whoever you think is gonna match up with him in the Magic game on Friday. And then Yonisante DeCumpo or Brooke Lopez for the Milwaukee Bucks. Chris, AD and Jared Allen have matched up a couple of times already in their careers. What do you think of this matchup? and two, how do you think this continues to help Jared Allen’s not, I don’t wanna say legacy,

Chris (13:49.088)

Yeah.

Ethan Sands (14:14.094)

but how he’s viewed by the NBA, especially because he does a lot of things more quietly and reserved than some other stars throughout the league.

Chris (14:26.6)

Ethan’s standing across the league is just not going to change all that much. It really isn’t. nobody’s gonna say that he’s better than Anthony Davis. Nobody’s gonna say that he’s better than Jokic. Nobody’s ever going to say that he’s better than Embiid. Like, once you get past that tier of player and then you start talking about, you know, BAM, Christophe Sporzingis, then I think it becomes more of a legitimate argument.

But there are limitations that Jarrett has as a player. He can’t do the things on the offensive end of the floor that, indeed, Jokic and Anthony Davis can do. He just can’t. He can’t be that central to a team’s offense when it comes to scoring, when it comes to usage rate, when it comes to touches and all that stuff. Kenny Atkinson said the other night prior to the New York game that he’s been so impressed with Jarrett.

Like this version of Jarrett that he is seeing here with the Cavs is different than the guy that he coached in Brooklyn. And that’s a credit to Jarrett for continuing to expand his game and becoming a better player. But at some point, like you just have to understand that Jarrett kind of is who he is and there’s just not as much room for him to grow or evolve that much more than he already has.

You know, early in his career, he was viewed as rim protector, rim roller, and lob threat. And he’s become more than that. And he deserves a lot of credit for that. But then you get to a point of, okay, that’s great. And he’s an all star caliber center and he’s one of the best centers in the Eastern conference. But, but now that he’s become this, how much better can he get? And I just don’t think there’s as much room for him to continue to evolve and become.

that kind of center in that tier of big man in the NBA. And that’s okay. That’s okay because not everybody’s going to be Jokic and not everybody’s going to be AD and not everybody is going to be in beat. If he can continue to do the things at both ends of the floor that the Cavs need that affect winning at a high level and play to his particular role on this team.

Chris (16:52.608)

then that’s all they need him to do. They don’t need him to go out and score 25 to 30 a night, right? They don’t need him to go out and be an offensive hub where he’s playing out of the post or he’s playing at the elbows and stuff like that. That’s not what makes Jarrett great. That’s not who he is. He is one of the premier pick and roll big men in the NBA. He’s one of the premier lob threats in the NBA and

All of those things make him special to the calves and all of those things make him integral to everything that they do.

Ethan Sands (17:30.842)

I think it’s really interesting that you say what Kenny Atkinson said previously about being impressed with Jared Allen, right? Because this is the same coach that he played in and played with under in his rookie season where he said, Kenny Atkinson said, going a little bit further into his career, that he could have his jersey retired in the rafters in Brooklyn if he continues to play a certain way and develop and.

Chris (17:59.254)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (17:59.738)

become the player that he is now, right? Now he’s with the Cavs and has ultimately become probably the guy that Kenny Atkinson envisioned back when he was talking about the days in Brooklyn. Obviously last season he had a career high in points per game, 16.5. He also had a career high in shooting, like field goal attempts, right, with 10.6. But I feel in Kenny Atkinson’s offense, he’s gonna be more efficient with less touches.

Obviously with Donovan Mitchell, Darius Garland, Evan Mobley getting high uses throughout the games. I feel like Jared Allen is going to be able to use his body, his skillset that you mentioned Chris, to be able to grow just the efficiency of the game, especially scoring at the rim for this team. Because he knows his skillset, he knows what he’s good at, and he’s gonna be able to attack those areas. No, I don’t think Jared Allen wants to be.

Chris (18:54.358)

Hmm.

Ethan Sands (18:56.398)

Joe LMB, Nikola Jokic, all those different guys. I think he’s satisfied with being a backup role player to the stardom of Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley potentially and all those guys because he doesn’t want to be in the limelight. He doesn’t want the flashing lights over top of him because obviously we know the line that he said in New York two years ago, right? But this is a guy that if he’s in his role, I feel like can still become one of the top.

centers in the league, even if he is doing it behind the scenes or in the shadows of a higher profile scorer and talent and things of that nature like Donovan Mitchell. For me, if Jared is able to maintain the success that he’s had this year already, averaging 17.3 points on 7.8 field goal attempts per game, which is around 80.6 % from the field, which is insane. It’s probably,

unheard of for somebody to be that efficient for an entire season, but also averaging a double-double and being able to impact the defensive end as a rim protecting big, one of the best in the league as you mentioned, I think even without the stardom, I think that should still get him the recognition that he deserves to be in those conversations. Also, when you look at basketball reference, right, obviously it’s way too early for this, but it’s an MVP tracker.

Chris (19:56.95)

Mm-hmm.

Chris (20:24.198)

here we go. Player efficiency rating. Here we go.

Ethan Sands (20:25.336)

Yeah, here we go, let’s do it, let’s do it. MVP tracker for basketball reference. Here is the top five. Number five.

Chris (20:37.534)

Ethan. Ethan.

It’s a week into the season. We were looking at MVP trackers. Are you really?

Ethan Sands (20:44.57)

Hey, it’s just fun. It’s just fun. All I wanted to say is Jared Allen is number five on this list and right ahead of him is Anthony Davis. So he’s going to get to play him on Wednesday. I think it’s going to be a fun matchup and something we get to look forward to.

Chris (21:03.03)

Okay, so you said that you consider Jarrett one of the top centers in the NBA. That’s a blanket statement. Define that more clearly. Was he a top five center in the entire league to you?

Ethan Sands (21:16.866)

No, no, not yet. Not yet. I want to see where he’s able to finish this season, right? Obviously our friend Brian Winters had him at a top five center in the Eastern Conference. Obviously that pushes him out of the top five conversation in the league. I think he could be considered a top eight center in the NBA entirely currently. And I think that could move up. Obviously we talked about Bam Adebayo, Carl Anthony Towns, those conversations that we can have, but

BAM impacts the game so much and if Jared Allen is able to continue the success he’s having currently, think he could be in a conversation with BAM to be on the same tier. Not above BAM, but to be on the same tier as BAM at a bio.

Chris (22:10.154)

I just think when you start talking about these kinds of things and then you give it a little bit more thought and you start thinking about the other players that also occupy that same position, like Jerrick gets further and further down that list and it’s not a knock against him. He’s really, really important to what the Cavs do. He’s a really talented player. He has a top five center in the Eastern Conference. But like there are levels to this. There are levels to great. There are levels to start.

So would you rather have Jared Allen or would you rather have Wembe?

Ethan Sands (22:47.77)

That’s crazy. That’s crazy. are we, we, well, no, no, no, because are we talking, are we talking about potential? Are we talking about like, are we talking about writing? Okay. Okay. Jared Allen or Wemby.

Chris (22:50.838)

I mean, you’re talking about the position,

Chris (22:56.541)

I think we’re talking about everything!

Chris (23:01.44)

So if you’re going to call a guy, one of the best at the position, you’re comparing him to the other guys at the position. And you’re talking about projecting Wemby forward and everything that he can do right now. Jared Allen or Wemby. Who do you rank higher?

Ethan Sands (23:17.796)

Currently, I’m taking Wemby just because his game is more spread out. He can do more things on the offensive end and he does the same things defensively. So I would take Wemby in that.

Chris (23:30.13)

Jared Eleanor Jokic.

Ethan Sands (23:32.506)

Obviously you’re a bitch. That’s, yeah.

Chris (23:34.218)

Okay, Jared Allen or Subbonus.

Ethan Sands (23:37.37)

See, see, are we, are we talking? Yeah, because for me, I am, I am, I am because.

Chris (23:41.341)

WHAT

You’re debating this in your own head?

Ethan Sands (23:51.623)

I don’t know, don’t don’t know, Subonis’s numbers off the top of my head. I don’t, but.

Chris (23:56.404)

He’s a walking triple double basically.

Ethan Sands (24:01.432)

Right, but he’s not in the same tier as Jokic, obviously, right?

Chris (24:06.304)

Well, no, there are levels to this. That’s why I went to the next level.

Ethan Sands (24:10.53)

Right, I hear you.

Chris (24:13.344)

So would you rather have Jared Allen or Subbonus?

Ethan Sands (24:20.41)

This is hard. It’s hard for me just because I don’t think Sabonis impacts the defensive end the same way that Jared Allen does, to be very fair. I don’t think he impacts the defensive end the same way that Jared Allen does. I would take bam over Sabonis, right? I know. man. Hold on. Let me pull up Sabonis’ numbers.

Chris (24:30.645)

Okay.

Chris (24:39.124)

Not the question.

Chris (24:42.901)

Not the question.

Chris (24:50.25)

I mean, he is more of an offensive force than Jared is, but you’re right that he’s not the kind of defensive player that Jared is. So the question becomes, is Jared’s defense that much better than Sabonis’s defense where, you know, even though Jared’s not the kind of offensive force that he is, you still take him because he’s that great defensive.

Ethan Sands (24:53.442)

Right, yeah, clearly.

Ethan Sands (25:16.558)

Yeah. how, did someone is impacting winning as well? Joining Sacramento and having them become a contender in the West or somebody you want to look at for. Yeah. I, I would, I would say those, that’s a really good comparison. I, I.

For me and how I’ve been able to see Jared Allen impact winning at with the Cavs on a with a with less usage rate, better defensive numbers and what he’s been able to do for the last couple of years, I would take Jared Allen over Sabonis in this conversation.

Chris (25:59.68)

Jarrett or Shingoon.

Ethan Sands (26:02.5)

Jared Allen.

Chris (26:04.946)

What? Really?

Ethan Sands (26:05.9)

Yeah, I’m taking Jared Allen over single.

Chris (26:10.102)

You didn’t even hesitate.

Ethan Sands (26:12.066)

I didn’t. That one, I feel like, feel like Sangoon, like, he is their entire team, right? Him and Jalen Green. I’m talking about Jared Allen having a similar impact, better defensive numbers, than guys that are the focal point of the offense. Jared Allen currently is averaging 17 points a game, right? Sangoon, last year, averaged 21.1.

Right? With more touches, more attempts, all of those different things.

Chris (26:42.966)

Yeah?

Chris (26:46.452)

More defensive attention though, more challenges from an opposing defense. Jarrett has the benefit of playing with Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell and the eyes are not going to be focused on him. The defensive attention not going to be focused on him. So that’s part of it too. Can’t overlook that.

Ethan Sands (26:49.658)

Correct? Correct.

Ethan Sands (27:01.464)

Indeed. Yeah, 100%. I still think that one, there’s more of a development piece to Sangoon and figuring out where he’s like, how he’s going to fit in to that Houston team. Like how is he going to impact winning on a higher level? Or are the Rockets going to simply be a play-in team with the roster that they have and him as the focal point on the offense?

Chris (27:17.792)

We’re here.

Chris (27:29.438)

Jared Allen or Chet Holmgren.

Ethan Sands (27:32.185)

Chet hunger.

Chris (27:34.434)

Jared Allen or Miles Turner.

Ethan Sands (27:37.348)

Cheer it out.

Chris (27:39.325)

I think that one’s really close. I think they’re basically the same player. Like, Turner can stretch it out to the floor a lot better than Jarrett can. He can shoot the three, he can run, pick and pop stuff. He’s more comfortable out on the perimeter. But I think they’re very, very similar in terms of player.

Ethan Sands (27:58.49)

I agree. We’ve talked about that. We’ve had that argument before, right? Miles Turner and Jared Allen, just how they match up. And that’s why we talked about them when we talked about how Dean Wade potentially matched up with Miles Turner in the preseason, depending on what the matchups and size ups were going to happen. But yeah, I take Jared Allen over in that situation. I think even though

Chris (28:02.453)

Yeah.

Ethan Sands (28:23.224)

Miles Turner might be more forceful, might be more tenacious than Jared Allen, technically. I don’t think he impacts winning the same way that Jared Allen does for that team.

Chris (28:33.792)

Well, look, think you make a good point on the impact winning thing. And there’s no doubt that Jared’s style impacts winning. And the Cavs numbers with and without Jared speak for themselves. And they’re really, really important. He’s also in many cases in these conversations when you’re talking about how he impacts winning versus how the other guy impacts winning, he’s also on the better team with better teammates.

And winning and losing in all of team sports is a measure of your entire team against that other team. So it’s like, is Shangoon in a position where he can impact winning on that team with that collection of players? Right? I don’t know that he is. Not yet, anyway.

Ethan Sands (29:22.586)

I think you ask him he says he is. I think you ask him he says he is. Right?

Chris (29:30.624)

Well, sure, what’s any player going to say? No.

Ethan Sands (29:34.734)

Not in that sense. the sense of, like, I am the piece that is supposed to put this whole thing together, right? Obviously, Jared Allen has a smaller role than Darius Donovan, Evan. We talked about that at the beginning. But, like, if you are going to say that this team isn’t good enough to compete with the Cavs or isn’t on the same tier as the Cavs, and we’re also talking about the focal point of their offense in that team, does that not say more about

Chris (29:58.134)

They’re not.

Ethan Sands (30:04.462)

that player that it does about Jared Allen?

Chris (30:08.01)

from what standpoint.

Ethan Sands (30:10.606)

the standpoint of the argument that we’re making between who would you rather have?

Chris (30:17.11)

Well, I think everything goes into it, but like if you put Shangoon on a better team, does his game impact winning? If you put him around better players that are more ready to win games, as opposed to all these young kids not named Fred Van Vliet, does he impact winning in a different kind of way? Does your perception change? You know what I mean? I think that’s something that you have to look at because I just don’t think…

Ethan Sands (30:40.718)

Yeah, but-

Chris (30:44.02)

Houston is in a position to consistently win basketball games because of the roster that they have, because of the collection of players, because of how young and inexperienced they are. They’re just not at the same level that in terms of their development, that a team like the Cavs, Oklahoma City,

Like if you’re comparing Oklahoma City and Houston, Oklahoma City’s further advanced in terms of their organizational development than a team like Houston. They’re more ready to win. They’re more capable of winning. So I just think when you’re talking about young players on rebuilding teams or still maturing teams, I think it’s hard to expect whoever that player is to impact winning at a higher level.

Ethan Sands (31:36.664)

Right, to play Devil’s-

Chris (31:38.666)

Are we going to sit here and say that like Wemby doesn’t impact winning because the Spurs stink? They got a bunch of young players that shouldn’t be either starting or in a rotation in the NBA. You know what I mean? Like those things are hard to say about young players this early in their careers.

Ethan Sands (31:58.234)

To play devil’s advocate, right? Say you put Alpharad Sengoon on a better team. Is he able to perform at the same caliber without the same amount of touches and the same amount of usage? Right? That’s my comparison. If he was the third option, would he still be able to? Is his efficiency, is his field goal percentage, is all of these different things going to translate into a role where you have less opportunities?

And you have to convert on almost all of them. Like you are expected to make these and obviously their games are different, right? Alpha and Sengun is more spread out. I don’t know why we got stuck on Sengun. But I like they’re more spread out, right? Than Jared Allen’s game and all those different things. Obviously we know Jared Allen has the ability to shoot that little 10 foot mid range or whatever you want to call it. But he is known for his game in the paint.

Chris (32:36.896)

Mm-hmm.

Chris (32:44.032)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (32:55.646)

And he is known for his vertical spacing and his spacing that is created also by playing alongside Evan Mobley, Darius Garland, Donovan Mitchell. Like we’re gonna harp on that, right? But if you were to put Sangoon or Miles Turner on a different team, are they going to have a bigger impact on winning with a smaller role? Like the way that Jared Allen does.

Chris (33:07.434)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (33:24.27)

Because if Miles Turner gets put on the Rockets with Sengun, like, does that become a powerhouse team? I don’t think so.

Chris (33:37.206)

I mean, Miles Turner has a relatively small role by comparison to some of these other guys, right? Like he’s third on his team in shot attempts. He’s probably third on his team in touches. The offensive runs through Halliburton and then Siakam is the second guy. So in some cases, know, Miles Turner is in the Jared Allen type role where he’s not the star of the team.

He’s not the focal point of the offense. He’s not the centerpiece of the offense, but he does a lot of different things that help the Pacers in terms of his spacing, in terms of his rim protection, in terms of his switch ability on the defensive end of the floor, in terms of his three point shooting, in terms of his rebounding and finishing defensive possessions. So I do think like when you’re talking about some of these guys, like

If we’re not talking about AD, if we’re not talking about Jokic, if we’re not talking about Embiid, stylistically, they may be different, no doubt. Because Jared is not like Miles Turner in his ability to stretch it out to the perimeter. He’s not like Shangoon in his ability to operate as an offensive hub, similar to, I guess, Jokic light or Demontes Sabonis light. Like that’s how…

Shangoon’s going to continue to get used throughout the course of his career because he’s that kind of player. But even though stylistically some of these guys may be different, if we’re not talking about Jokic, if we’re not talking about Embiid, if we’re not talking about Wembee, if we’re not talking about the best of the best at that particular position, then we are talking about the third or fourth option.

on whatever team it is that they play for.

Ethan Sands (35:30.104)

Yeah, and I guess that makes sense. Obviously, the paces to start the season haven’t been good, right? But it’s a four-game sample size. We’re not going off of four-game sample sizes, Chris. I’m telling you, we’re not.

Chris (35:43.188)

No, we’re not, especially when a team is coming off a conference finals appearance.

Ethan Sands (35:46.916)

Correct, correct, somewhere that the calves wanna be, right? But I…

Chris (35:51.294)

It just feels like to me for you with Jarrett, you have him outside the top five for sure. Inside the top 10, but closer to 10 than he is to five. And I don’t think that makes him one of the best centers in the NBA. I don’t.

Ethan Sands (36:09.154)

Okay, I’m saying, I think the argument I was trying to make more so, because I said, I believe he’s in the top eight, right? And so that falls into the category of what you just said. I feel like for me, Jared Allen is going to be able to showcase during this week against some of the better perimeter players when it comes to centers and stuff like that, how capable he is, not only of just keeping up.

but also containing them, especially on the defensive end. Like, we talked about it last year, Giannis usually struggles against Jared Allen. I don’t want to jinx him, but that is a matchup that we’ve seen to pose problems for Giannis Anandakumar. Somebody who doesn’t struggle against many players can get to the cup from the free throw line, maybe even the three point line after he crosses half court.

I’m not saying that Jared Allen is one of the best centers in the NBA. I say he’s on the rise to be in competition with some of the best centers in the NBA and is competing to showcase that even in a smaller role, even without the shine, that he is somebody that needs to be mentioned when it comes to conversations of top 10 of centers in the NBA.

Chris (37:14.035)

Mm.

Chris (37:34.934)

I’ll just put it this way. Based on how the calves operate, based on how the calves function, and based on how this roster is constructed, Jared Allen is the right center for them. And that’s really all that matters. They need the things that Jared brings to the table. They need his defense, they need his rim protection, they need his rim rolling, they need his screening, they need his vertical spacing.

They need a lob threat. know, Darius Garland and Jared Allen work a really, really good two man game. In the past, Jared Allen and Donovan Mitchell work a really, really good two man game. Like the pick and roll partnership is just that. It is a partnership. And Jared Allen is the kind of center that the Cavs need on this roster at the moment. And that’s good enough. Even if he’s not a top five center in the NBA. And he’s not.

Ethan Sands (38:32.57)

Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Okay. Our first debate of the year, only a weekend. Let’s do it. Yeah. Okay. So whether or not you think I’m right or wrong or whether you agree with Chris’s takes, the way that you can tell us directly to our phones is through subtext. So with that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of The Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me, and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. Come tell me I’m crazy. I’m okay with that. We can talk about any debate that you want. Jared Allen, Evan Mobley, Donovan Mitchell, Darius Garland, you name it, let’s chat. Sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.com/Cavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine.

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